We Wrote It Down
Double Fine reflects on the launch of Psychonauts 2 and the PsychOdyssey documentary series while looking to the future and a return to smaller projects.
Duration:
Published: July 26th 2024
Episode Stills Gallery
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On a green forested hill overcast by dense clouds, Tim Schafer officiates the wedding of Double Fine's James Marion in front of a white wooden gazebo.
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Senior Game Designer Sarah Will sits on an orange couch in front of the patio in the Double Fine annex room, nervously laughing during her interview for PsychOdyssey episode 33.
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Long time Double Fine employee Dave "Rusty" Russell reclines in the annex room on one of the new orange couches and makes a side-eyed glance in response to a leading interview question.
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Decorators hang a classic abstract painting of the Double Fine logo in a new lobby lounge area surrounded by shelves with trophies and tasteful modern lighting.
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Double Fine celebrates with a company picnic out in a San Francisco park on a bright sunny day, with Tim Schafer decked out in shades and a festival shirt amongst a large group of team members. James Spafford amongst them notices the camera and points directly as the lens.
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Lined up in rows on a grass hill with the Golden Gate bridge behind them in the distance, the Double Fine team poses together for the annual company picnic photo.
Episode Transcript
[BERT PLAYS THE PIANO]
TIM: Happy Monday to you!
I hope you all recovered from that amazing party.
Was that just last week? Did that just-- did that just happen?
Yeah! Thank you, Monica, and Denise, and Spaff,
and everyone who helped make that amazing party happen.
And it was awesome! It was so great. And it was nice to see all of you.
And then, of course, we released the best game of all time.
So props to absolutely every single one of you here.
PAUL: Remember the launch party?
Did you go to the launch party? You were there.
Yeah. I was there, yeah.
No, I literally stood for, like, five hours
and talked to people.
So my voice was gone and my legs were killing me.
Yeah, I remember I did not wear a mask.
And that's one of the first times I didn't wear a mask out in public.
Yeah, a lot of people-- I mean, we were still in that period
where people had forgotten how to socialize.
And I remember, like, half of the conversations started that way.
People were just like: "Yeah, I don't remember how to talk to people.
Sorry if this is weird."
But, yeah, I think especially, like, by the time Tim gave his speech...
...that mood had lifted.
TIM: ...having the budget and resources
to make sure things like the fishing mini-game got in the game.
I didn't...
Uh, I didn't actually check. I just trust that--
EMILY: The finality of it all.
Like: "Oh my gosh! These people! I see them, touch them.
They all look a little different too."
Because...
...time changes you.
TIM: And that was great.
And I think people were also a little tired.
Like, everybody's been low key.
Everyone just felt kind of sweet,
and, like, warm, and nice to each other at that party.
I think we were watering down the drinks.
It's like catharsis, right?
It's like: "This thing is finally over. We can put it behind us.
We'll never have to talk about it again."
[MUSIC]
NAOKO: So, we had the launch party.
And then we had, like, two weeks off.
So, um...
I moved to New York that weekend.
As much as I feel really proud of the work we did on Psychonauts 2,
everyone who worked on that game needed a break.
Sort of like a recovery time for the team.
I think, like, creative recovery, emotional recovery.
I traveled. I went to Iceland.
But I didn't-- I actually should've taken more time off.
I don't even remember.
LEVI: I got married at some point there.
That was the new project, yeah.
I was also going through some personal stuff
in my life around then.
I got divorced.
Ooh, I was also...
I was also secret pregnant. Do you know that?
PAUL: Oh, it was secret pregnant?
It was secret pregnant.
EMILY: Ugh...
Oh, Gigi.
How's it going?
I was in two hours of meetings...
That's too much.
EMILY: P2 baby-- There was a P2 baby boom.
That's a brand new one!
EMILY: It does give you the, like:
"I've been on this project for, like, five years.
And I'm not getting younger.
Gotta have that baby now.
PAUL: Getting married this year.
Yeah, getting married in, like, four months.
Tim is officiating which I'm so excited for.
Yeah, it's gonna be great.
I...
PAUL: Was alcohol involved in that decision?
I think I was probably drunk
when I said I would officiate James' wedding.
I don't how. Recently I've been like:
"What... was I thinking agreeing to it?
What am I gonna say?"
Oi, oi, oi.
PAUL: Let's just start.
I don't really even know what we are talking about,
because we are just doing this after having not talked to anybody
in, like, three years, so we are just gonna...
Oh, you haven't talked to anybody?!
CLAM: Wow, this is, like...
...strange.
Like, being back behind this again.
It's been awhile since we've done this.
Psychonauts 2.
PAUL: Remember that game?
Barely.
PAUL: I can't believe it's been 15 years.
-Yeah. -That's nuts.
Time...
How do we play this? Like I've been asleep for two years?
I just woke up. And, like, I was in a coma, like:
"What happened?! Did we ship the game?"
GEOFF: It ended. We shipped.
But I didn't feel like I was done.
It was very-- Probably the weirdest ending
to a game I've ever experienced.
EMILY: There is something that's a little anticlimactic about all of it.
Because you've--
Your life just is consumed by this...
...this project for so long.
And then it's out in the world, it feels...
...unreal.
You are, like, in this unreal daze of:
"Oh, I should be working on Cassie.
Wait, no, Cassie is done. Cassie is done."
I don't know. This is strange.
But I really did like watching everyone
just so joyous and reacting to it so positively, and...
It felt nice, and weird, and all the emotions.
The fact that we could launch the game and then immediately
there are people streaming it,
so we could spend, like, so much time just watching people on Twitch...
This game is unreal!
I was like: "This is, like, an unlimited number of playtesters
that are just sitting there, streaming things,
and giving me live commentary on Twitch?"
This game is fucking cool, because-- all right.
Watching people play it on Twitch, and YouTube, and stuff,
I cried, you know. Like, it was awesome.
There's been a lot more crying,
just very emotional reactions to this game.
You know, that's, like, a terrible thing to think about,
but, like, it's true and it's something that everybody has to grapple with, right?
JEREMY: And people have been affected in so many ways that I didn't imagine,
and I think people on the team haven't imagined.
Oh, man...
Oh, Bob...
GEOFF: You know, I'm glad that we could approach a lot of these subjects
without being dismissive or--
Just treating them with the respect that they deserve.
RUSTY: And the fact that we could maybe even help somebody who actually may have
one of issues that's brought up in the game,
and they felt some sort of... I don't know, being seen,
or having some sort of catharsis by playing the game.
That's the best.
DR. MICK: To every single person...
...that is about to come across this screen...
...this was wonderful.
And just rejoicing and enjoying that was...
I think that was really special.
I think that was really important for the team.
I think that was good for me to see.
WILL: I didn't know whether or not to, like, avoid looking at the reviews
or to just go right into it.
I tried to avoid and I failed.
[LAUGHS]
I think that's most people.
PAUL: They were pretty good though, weren't they?
Yeah!
ZACH: I think by the end of the game it was...
...so difficult to tell, like, if it was any good.
I think because we were just so in this bubble.
You know, because I kind of felt at that point that I had no idea,
like: "You tell me."
They all seemed to really, really love it.
I can't stop smiling, guys.
I'm so happy right now!
LEVI: And it was like--
It was like: "Okay, we did a good job.
We did a good job."
It was just, like, cool to hear people's impressions.
I had peers calling me,
and just telling me: "That's a great game.
And I really liked the sound you did here."
Like, that to me-- that got me.
That was really good.
Like, for all the--
the journey that went into Compton being what it is in the finished game,
like, I really sought all that stuff out, and...
It was just really interesting to see,
because I didn't expect that it would be for everybody.
I mean, nothing should be.
It had its fans and I think those people really dug it.
So, that was cool.
MOIRA: My older son, he absolutely loved it.
That's-- you know, that's pretty cool
that my kid wants me to come into his classroom and talk to his friends.
Did you ever imagine yourself being the cool parent?
I've never been a cool anyone!
It's validating! Like: "Yeah, I do do that.
This is-- yeah.
I do all this stuff.
Yeah, I made that that you see on the TV.
You know, I made that."
SETH: And that was the goal.
You know, build the thing that people are gonna...
remember and love.
And I think we got there.
NERDCUBED: Oh my god, is every single backer listed?
I'm gonna let this play out.
Because every one of these fucking people...
every one of these fucking people believed in Double Fine.
Every single one of these people.
And I love them.
It was just a--
It was a really nice...
...um, feeling.
Could have been-- it could have been much worse.
EMILY: Can you imagine us doing all that...
...and just everyone hated it?
That happens a lot.
That's, like, the dev life.
TAZIO: It's a miracle whenever that stuff works out.
Just, like, yeah...
Things like relationships, and making video games, like...
all of it is a little miracle, you know?
I understand if they don't want to make Psychonauts 3,
because they want to make something new.
-But also I really hope-- -But also, please, come on...
...this world is so incredible!
Maybe we'll make a third some day.
I'm down for a third.
[LAUGHS]
Just because, like, we have all these lessons learned, you know?
It would be so...
I mean, it wouldn't be easy.
That's actually-- I was about to say:
"It would be so easy to make Psychonauts 3."
That would be fucking hard, dude.
No...
Uh, yeah, no. I'm sorry.
[LAUGHS]
Oh, jeez.
Oh, jeez.
JAMES: But there was a period of time of time
after the game shipped where I was pretty depressed
about how little impact I felt like I had on it.
Just, like, you know, there is parts of Bob's Bottles that I did
and that shipped in the way that I designed.
And same with Hollis.
But outside of that I was like:
"Man, I, like, made six levels.
And I can only see, like, one or two total in the game that I made."
And that made me pretty depressed.
But upon replaying it...
There is a lot of stuff in there that came from me that I'm very proud of.
Like Bob and Helmut's relationship.
Yeah, I'm not sad anymore
about the stuff that I made for the game that didn't make it in.
Which is, I think, part of just being more mature as a developer.
And it happens all the time.
PAUL: What were you doing around that time?
Most of it was trying to organize post-morts.
Yeah, we were doing post-morts and I didn't want to rush it.
Because people, you know, taking time off,
a lot of people really needed to decompress.
It was really hard for some people.
Kind of just waiting for Tim here.
Um...
Tim is not coming.
Tim is not coming? He's ditched us?
He was worried that people would feel
less free to say what was on your mind if he was here.
So, instead...
...Seth will update him.
Yeah, oh, okay. Okay, that makes sense.
Um...
Also in that--
Have all of these been recorded by Paul?
Nope, do you want him to go away?
What does everyone think here?
I don't think we should have to worry about being on camera
or being in a documentary when we are talking about process
and how to make things better.
Yep.
It would be great if we could just...
...have a work conversation.
-Yep, that sounds good. -Yeah, that sounds right.
Agreed.
All right, well, uh...
There is a button that says-- I asked him.
I figured that there will be some people who are just like:
"We just made it through this. I don't want to talk about this anymore.
I just want to move on."
So, you are not gonna get good feedback from them.
And that's a perfectly fine way to feel.
Yeah, I get it. Same.
We are gonna start with communication and relationships.
This one has a lot of "What can be improved."
You guys all remember the giant bonsai tree.
[GEOFF LAUGHS]
That was, like, a perfect example of, like,
we went too far on one idea that we knew wouldn't work.
You know, and then some people are just like:
"These things specifically I had a problem with.
I don't think we should do this anymore."
We never seemed to have an honest conversation about scope.
Period.
NAOKO: "This-- I know we didn't mean to do this, but this was really bad.
This was really bad for process or morale, or took us on this detour."
And that kind of specific stuff I really, really want.
LISETTE: I think as the Art Director through that period,
it was really frustrating to go into those reviews every week
and just see more pathing done.
Like, there was--
None of our notes being addressed, none of our feedback being addressed.
And I think a lot of that came from who shall not be named.
And the way he would kind of redirect,
you know, the rest of the design team away from what we all agreed on.
Lisette, thank you for helming all of this.
Because before you got here it was kind of madness.
[GEOFF LAUGHS]
I know I'm definitely a lot more sane since you got on this project.
Which is...
which is amazing, so.
LISETTE: Thank you.
Oh, yeah, that was-- made me really sad.
I didn't know that she was going.
I didn't really know what was going on.
But, yeah, we were close. We worked good together.
Yeah, I talk to her.
I think she is thriving.
I think she is... making moves.
I miss Lisette.
I miss my girl.
But a lot of-- a lot of post-morts sometimes is, like...
...giving people the opportunity to kind of...
...you know, say what they have to say, so they can move on and get some closure.
That was...
I always want post-morts to be more, like, helpful than they are.
Hi, Dan! Long time no see.
Hello!
TIM: Hello, everybody!
Hello! Welcome to the final post-mortem.
We've done so many post-mortems.
Big hand for Naoko.
Running all these post-mortems.
All these different groups, all these different departments
have come together and done pre-post-mortems.
and this is the final post-post-mortem
You look at that project and there was a lot of...
pain and suffering.
And every kind of choice that led to all the pain and suffering
in some way you can trace it all back to choices I made and me.
Like, what do you say to people when something like that is over.
It's like, you know...
This game came out really great.
It's a really great game. I'm very, very proud of it.
I hope everyone who worked on it is proud of it.
It's up for Game of the Year awards and that's amazing.
So I have no regrets that way.
But it caused us a lot of pain.
I think a lot of people were hurt on the project
and did things-- had experiences they didn't want to have.
It's one way of saying I don't...
I don't think I would ever bring in an external project leader ever again.
It's hard to find those rare,
those rare people who understand what we are all about.
But, um...
it did kind of...
force us to, like, think about what we are all about.
I mean, I think this was an interesting experience where, like--
when some people-- we had a lot of new people on the project.
And a lot of new people in senior positions at the company.
And it forced us to kind of answer questions of like:
"Why do we do things in a certain way?
Why do we do things in this crazy way?"
It was interesting, because we hired a lot of people to work on Psychonauts 2.
And a lot of them came from other companies,
they had their own way of doing things.
And usually if you hire one person at a time,
they'll come here, they'll see all the weird ways that we do things,
and they'll kind of, like, see the good and the bad of it,
and then just adjust and fit in with that.
And, you know, you take one person at a time,
you can kind of fit them in.
We hired a bunch of people at once, and it was such a, like--
the center mass of was so much shifted
that it actually got the whole thing, like, off track.
And not derailed like a train where it crashes.
And methane-- a big explosion.
But like when your model train set is just kind of off the track a little bit
and everything is bumpier and slower than it should be.
Until it hits that rerailing track and gets back on.
And that's the way the project was for a long time.
Just bumpy and slow. And we are like:
"Why is it bumpy and slow?"
I feel like I have been talking a lot.
I have some more things to talk about, but, um...
Does anyone want to interject anything in there now?
NAOKO: Because the thing is if you don't say it at the post-mort, it's like...
Like, over a beer, yeah, you can say that stuff,
but you are not gonna get a platform
to say it in front of the whole team ever again.
So if you got some fire, you just-- this is--
This is it.
-Hello, Gigi. -Hello.
Yeah. Hi, everybody.
You know, I'm sad and a little disappointed
that we had people crunch.
I know for certain a number of folks towards the end of Psychonauts 2 crunched.
We tried not to.
This happened to me on Psychonauts 2.
Working on the cameras,
like, once again it's that thing where it's not just done or not done.
It's in this gray area of, like: "How good is it?"
And so I had this self-imposed pressure this whole time of, like:
"It's not up to my quality bar.
I know I can do better than this. I want it to be better."
And so I would end up working...
more than I should.
AARON: You know, knowing how many times
we had to adjust the ship date of the game.
The thing about that, I think, that was particularly difficult
for, you know, someone who is in the trenches working on stuff,
is just that... we didn't know that we were going to move the date
until we were really close to that date often times.
And that really encouraged crunching.
But I still think it's--
you know, the onus is on the studio
in order to perpetuate a culture of putting people above the work, right?
Um...
But then also there is-- there is some personal responsibility,
um, for not...
...not letting that get out of hand.
KEE: And sincerely, and especially as someone
that was managing folks on this project.
If I had given the impression,
whether explicitly or implicitly, that crunch was okay,
I'm so sorry.
I... I really apologize.
If that's how you felt, then I--
KEE: We, value-wise, know we shouldn't do it.
So, right now, I-- I guarantee there is a lot of--
there is a lot of studios that are shipping remotely,
there is a lot of people crunching in silence.
It's a good view of how a studio like Double Fine tries to--
Because we have the best of intentions...
Still happens.
So every studio can say they have the best of intentions.
"How do we make that not happen?"
And I think that's an evolving conversation.
I don't know, maybe I was lucky, but I didn't--
I didn't feel a ton of pressure to work a lot more.
And in fact nobody-- nobody really told me:
"You need-- you need to do this."
And I've been at studios where we've been told:
"You need to do this."
JOSH: It was a stark contrast
to other studios that I've worked at,
which I won't name.
[COUGHS]
I hope it burns in a fire.
They manipulate you.
I remember one time when I was working there,
they lined us up in a room, not bigger than this one,
and the lead designer sitting at a table, everybody is standing,
because it's standing room only, and he goes:
"Who is coming in this weekend? We'll start with you."
There is a practice in the industry
of building crunch into production timelines.
And long-term that means you are losing this institutional knowledge
by burning people out.
I saw my boyfriend at the time, my now husband, work six months of crunch,
seven days a week.
And the toll it physically took on him,
just to look at him,
was so bad that I begged him to just leave the company.
And here it's different.
It's not abusive. That's the key element.
It's a lot more self-imposed here.
Like, right towards the end of the project
there was a lot of extra hours I put in as the lead
to make sure that the people
on the team that I was on didn't have to put in extra hours.
And I have a giant list of bugs
that now I have to spend my weekend cleaning up.
Which I've been doing for the last two months, so.
Yeah, no, it was like an open secret.
Like, everyone knew he was doing too much.
And many people told him, like: "You are doing too much."
Geoff, bugs will roll over.
So you do not have to do them over the weekend.
No, I understand that.
But-- but there is also work that has to--
that I have to do.
So that's also a tricky situation.
It's like: "How do you tell a willing person no?"
TIM: Okay, Kevin, hi.
Hi, yeah, I just want to talk about the schedule thing going forward.
In that I'm going to be pushing for us to be very honest with ourselves
about scope and schedule going forward.
My biggest push on those being...
to have actually sane timelines.
Yep, um...
Yeah, so, our VP of Development, Caryl, departed.
Um, thank you, all, for everything.
It's been great.
-Thanks, Caryl. -Thank you, Caryl.
See you all soon.
-Thank you. -Bye!
KEVIN: And Tim asked me to essentially step into that role.
So, yeah, going from Senior Producer to Director of Development for the studio.
You know, throughout my career,
you know, you have those moments where you are like:
"Well, if I was in charge, I would..."
And then, all of a sudden, I found myself in charge.
And so, now I guess I should start to do those things.
We now have Kevin as our Director of Development.
And I think people trust him
and feel like they can talk to him about things.
And I think they see him
as a benevolent force in the company which is great.
And why is he working out?
Because he worked here beforehand and we knew we all liked him!
That's funny, huh? Yeah.
MALENA: Kevin...
...is amazing.
He is probably the first person ever in this role,
and I've been through them all,
where I feel safe telling him what my emotional state is.
I remember when he started on RAD and I was like:
"Wow! He is the grown-up!"
How many Dio shirts do you both own?
I've got-- I have a couple.
You have a couple?
And there is just, you know, some aspects of how Psychonauts 2 ended
that, you know, we are gonna feel for...
the next two or three years.
Hey, Emily.
Hi! Um, I kind of--
I kind of want to go back in time for just a second
and talk about this, uh--
this one particular meeting, um...
right before the Christmas party actually.
Someone had brought up the--
you know, the big meeting with Amy, and Tim, and...
And I don't know if I feel like it ever got resolved.
It didn't feel like her concerns were answered.
And a lot of it seemed like an older crew was like:
"This isn't crunching. You don't know what crunching is.
Did we resolve those two generations feelings?
Did we, like...
AARON: I remember being in that meeting...
and feeling really strongly like I wanted to say something,
and feeling really disappointed in myself after that meeting,
and feeling like I had failed
to kind of do my duty to--
to speak up for what I thought was important.
I don't know, that meeting wasn't about, like, crunch culture.
It was about feeling not heard.
There was-- there was deeper stuff in that meeting, you know?
PAUL: Yeah, yeah.
Do you have thoughts about that--
that meeting, I guess.
I have thoughts about that meeting, yeah.
That-- that's my question, Tim.
TIM: The crunch meeting that we had on the project
I really regret having.
I should not have had that meeting.
Someone posted something in Slack
and I was naive enough to think like:
"Hey, let's just bring this up and we'll just settle it really quick."
And it was terrible. It span out of control.
And it-- it left bad feelings that I think...
...are with the company forever.
I mean, I was coming from--
I was reacting from a place--
I felt like I was being accused of a future crime.
Like, uh...
"Okay, you-- you have crunched us,
you've crunched us very hard in the future
and that's gonna happen."
"This is what you guys are gonna do."
And I knew that we wouldn't.
Except for some people say that we did.
But I was having a very personal, like, emotional reaction
to feeling like...
everything that we worked so hard to do as a company was being kind of...
...like, disregarded.
Because I knew what it was like before.
You know, and I'd been through it.
And I saw the efforts that were being made
to try and change things.
I started feeling-- I started getting kind of defensive.
And I thought that it was best that I didn't say anything.
RUSTY: Yeah, it's weird, because I sort of had--
sort of that feeling too,
but Amy was coming from an honest place.
It doesn't help to say: "You don't know how bad bad can be."
You know?
What would you like to hear about that meeting?
I mean, I guess I just want...
like, some clear consensus between, like...
I don't know if it's generational divide or just ideology...
CLAM: I think people wanted to hear something.
I think they wanted to hear that, like...
...you know, lines were crossed.
And...
...maybe at least, like, some sort of apology for that was owed.
Like, an apology that's not necessarily like: "I was wrong."
But like: "What I did should have-- could have been done differently.
And I don't wish for that to happen again."
And I don't know if that ever got addressed.
I remember it kind of went in circles a little bit.
I don't know that he needed to apologize for it.
But I think there were people that felt like...
...you know, that that would have helped them, you know?
And...
you know, people were trying to talk about it,
but it seemed like everyone had put it--
not put it behind them,
but just, like, weren't ready even to address it full-on, you know?
But, you know, having that brought up...
I don't know what I can say about that one, Emily.
Like, I really don't know what I can say about that meeting.
I was very frustrated.
I didn't like how it went.
But I do-- I do understand.
Because there was a time here where if you went home,
you were judged for it.
And when the food came in,
you weren't asked if you were staying.
You were staying, you know?
The food was brought in for everybody,
because you were staying.
I had my first son on Psychonauts
and I took a week off, you know, and I was back here.
We had several babies during Psychonauts, yeah.
And all those-- all those guys...
...missed, you know,
couple years of their kids life probably because of that, so.
TIM: But I think, like...
the truth of that meeting is that, like, someone was saying:
"Look, we have this much game to make.
And we have this much time left.
So, how are you gonna make this?
You are gonna make this up by crunching the team."
And Caryl was saying: "No, we are gonna ship here."
And everyone of course was saying: "That's not true."
And in the meeting I'm so uncomfortable,
because I'm like: "Everyone knows that's not true,
but I don't want to, you know, undermine Caryl in a meeting."
But, like: "I don't want to-- I wish she hadn't said that.
Because we-- we do have this much work to do."
We are not gonna get to here by crunching.
We are gonna get to here by us going...
hat in hand, and spreadsheet in hand,
to Matt Booty and saying: "This is what is right for the game,
is to pay this much more money to get a great game at the end."
And that's what we did.
But I-- I wish I had said things differently.
And I wish I just not let it go on.
Juli Gregg.
As a newer employee, I have no idea
what this meeting that we are talking about for most of this meeting is.
TIM: It was great. You should have been there.
JULI: It feels like there is something not being said.
And then, like, ten people messaged me and were like:
"We can talk after about the meeting."
[LAUGHS]
And I was just like: "What happened?!"
And I felt like my year-and-a-half on P2 was great.
I was like-- everything went well,
like, I've been working with Kee.
There were stressful moments, but, like, it was--
it was a lot of fun, so.
CLAM: And so, yeah, I don't know, maybe there is going to be a post--
post-follow-up to the...
Yeah, or maybe this is just how it's happening.
Like, people are getting to finally spit it out here.
TIM: And I don't know what else to say.
Naoko, do you have anything else to close it up...
...that you want to say?
I want to say thank you.
And I'm really glad the game is being received well,
and that everyone is enjoying it,
and you guys are being celebrated for all the fucking hard work you put in.
It was...
It was a lot of work!
You guys worked really hard!
TIM: Yeah, you wouldn't know it from watching the documentary.
We were nominated for Game of the Year.
I don't know if you saw this.
A lot of this-- this documentary,
they only tell you what they want you to hear.
they don't tell you the good things.
PRESENTER: Welcome to the Game Awards 2021!
Now, here is your host, Geoff Keighley!
Best Narrative.
My name is Raz!
And today is my first day on the job.
And the Game Award for Best Narrative goes to...
Ha! Marvel's--
WILL: You are fucking with me! What?!
JAMES: In the moment it's fun to be like:
"Fuck you, Guardians of the Galaxy!
How could you have a better story than Psychonauts?"
But... it's a pretty good game. So, like...
I guess it was, like, Guardians--
Guardians won a lot of our stuff.
"Our stuff."
Won over us.
[LAUGHS]
JOSHUA: It's cool, they are just saving us for Game of the Year.
GIGI: Hell, yeah!
[MUSIC]
ZAHRA: This is awesome!
And the 2021 Game of the Year is...
It Takes Two.
-WILL: Okay, wow! -GIGI: What?!
NAOKO: I didn't see that coming.
PAUL: It's all vote-based though, right?
-Like, the whole thing. -Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's just a popularity contest...
...more than it is, like, sane decision making.
TIM: Nominated for the Game Awards.
We were nominated for, like, seven Game Awards.
And we didn't get any of them. That was kind of sad.
That would have made a much happier ending to the story.
Me standing-- Can we greenscreen me on stage?
Going like: "Thank you for Game of the Year."
PAUL: That's gonna be in this episode.
But just--
just being nominated for Game of the Year obviously is a big deal.
I guess I don't really care.
Because I'm still proud of what we did.
And I feel like we had so many obstacles to getting to that point
that just getting it out and having it be as good as it was...
was...
was enough.
I wanted it real bad for everyone else's sake.
You know?
And we have, like, all of the--
The cabinet is already filled with awards,
so I don't know, like, where we would put any other awards.
We'd have to build a second cabinet.
We won the Spawnies...
Game of the Year.
And we won the New York Critics,
Video Game Critics
Game of the Year.
JAMES: I mean, it feels crazy to be upset that we didn't win more awards.
Like, until...
...July of 2021 it was like: "This game is a fucking disaster."
I mean, it was bad.
I don't even remember the middle of that project.
It seemed, like, trending bad.
Like, I'd be in the level reviews, I don't know what to say,
because I don't see how this is going to be good ever,
because this level is bad.
And there was a point during that,
during that darkest point where I felt like
if I could have just Men in Black-ed everybody
with a little pen, the entire world, like:
"Forget that we announced Psychonauts 2."
I would have...
just...
...backed out of it, because I felt like we couldn't do it.
But there was no going back at that point.
PAUL: How did you do it then?
[TIM CHUCKLES]
Um...
How did we do it?
All the levels...
every single level...
was rebuilt.
The Psychonauts 2 that got shipped...
is the Psychonauts 2 that got built
between summer 2019 and summer 2021.
And everything before that was just, like,
a bunch of pre-production rough sketches.
And there was a different game that we were building before then.
But it was a very different Psychonauts 2.
TIM: It was just a lot of people.
A lot of people. I mean, the team really stepped up.
But the secret weapon in the end game...
among many-many secret weapons,
was Seth, I think.
Like, he was just one of the designers.
And I was so touchy then about who is in charge.
And it took me a long time to officially make him the Lead Designer.
But I always knew, like:
"This is the designer that's focused on solutions.
He is not in fights with anybody.
He is not trying to have any sort of agenda with anything.
He just, like, wants the game to be good.
And he is always thinking about ways to make it better.
PAUL: Were there MVPs in your mind?
People that did incredible things
that maybe didn't get the recognition they should have.
OLIVER: I mean, Kee was the only one, as far as I can tell,
that was keeping this whole project together
and actually making sure that it happens.
Oh!
Oh, you are just gonna drop that question on me.
Who works here?
Oliver was a big one.
Geoff!
Clam.
-Naoko. -Jeremy French.
JP was fantastic.
OLIVER: But, like, for Kee specifically,
I think, yeah--
I don't know how he does it. Like, it's--
Staying so level-headed in those situations...
it's not easy.
COVID and working remotely...
...and that easily could have broken us.
But one of the most...
proud feelings things that I could have about the production
is how everyone adjusted, and reacted, and really came together
when we could have fallen apart.
And that is the way that we work together.
That is how I know Double Fine to be.
And that's how I want us to be kind of going--
going into the future.
Good job on the game!
And I'll see you tomorrow.
Oh, yeah!
Bye, Lauren!
JAMES: Like, you know, Tim says in his speech,
which, like, gets me misty every time I watch it.
But, like, it's a lot of people's favorite game ever.
And that's crazy.
It's so trite, but it's, like--
that's worth a lot more than an award from Geoff Keighley.
Not that I don't love Geoff Keighley, but...
much more affected by people on Discord or Twitch
saying how much they care about it.
TIM: Yeah, so we are done. Done talking about Psychonauts.
We can't talk about Psychonauts anymore.
It's illegal to talk about Psychonauts now.
Moving on!
Next game! What are we gonna talk about?
I think that's what you are waiting for, where it is like:
"When can I let go... of this?"
And I do, because I...
I do want to let go of it,
because you need room for the next thing.
In the two years since we shipped Psychonauts 2,
we've launched...
some more games.
All new games. Some new project leaders.
PAUL: We are back to the style of small game development at Double Fine.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
EMILY: Making...
these...
wonderful, human existence games is...
...really important to me, and what I want to do.
But I'm very tired, I'll just tell you that.
AARON: Things feel very different now than they used to.
PAUL: For the first time in the studio's life...
...it's never really been...
Broke?
JAMES: And now we have a lot of time.
We have a lot of trust from Microsoft it seems.
I'm drawing some really weird stuff right now and...
nobody has really told me to stop.
They kind of tell me that it's not weird enough here.
And that's what scares me.
AARON: In some ways it feels almost uncomfortable.
Because we are so used to... moving so quickly
that slowing down just a little bit, it feels like--
like you are making a mistake or you are missing out on something.
Disorienting in some way, because there isn't...
as strict deadlines as there was before.
I felt really unproductive for a long time.
Just because of that, like-- that feeling of like, you know:
"Task, task, task, task, task."
Like, checking off boxes.
And now it's like, uh...
sort of, like, trying to conceptualize stuff
and come up with, like--
Yeah, I mean, that's just, like, a completely different process.
I like it.
But...
it's, like...
taking care of mental health and yourself, it's like:
"How does one do that?"
And I don't think anyone is great at figuring that out yet.
Feeling better.
But starting new projects,
there is new situations,
and new struggles, and new problems those projects have.
Which... of course, you know,
it's never-- it's never smooth sailing forever.
PAUL: Emotionally, for you, having had distance,
spending time on a new project,
the documentary came out over a year after the game launched,
to be put back into that headspace...
Oh, man...
[SIGHS]
Yeah.
TAZIO: Because usually you just do these things
then you kind of move on to the next thing and you forget.
But then, in our case,
like, a documentary-- a long-ass documentary comes out.
And, like, you know, very thoroughly...
sort of, like, guides you through memory lane
and that whole process.
Of everything that ever happened.
PAUL: We kick off the documentary with the ten-year anniversary.
KEE: Yeah.
Oh my gosh! That was the beginning of the documentary?
How long had Psychonauts 1 been out for?
Hoo!
TIM: Uh, James. We are gonna talk about things.
One of the things we are gonna talk about--
we are gonna talk about...
...the slow roll-out of the Double Fine Adventure documentary
on making of Psychonauts 2.
PAUL: How did it feel to sort of be transported back to that experience?
[CHUCKLES]
Well, there was-- there was a few episodes
that I didn't need to relive that experience.
CLAM: Yeah, or not, you know.
Like, I...
I might have, like, blocked some of it out.
Oh, gosh.
LEVI: Watching all of that was like--
it was like just having things flow back to you
that, like, you even forgot about.
Which was pretty wild.
Oh!
Oh!
RUSTY: But it was also fun to see...
people who maybe weren't on the team anymore?
That's what I like about all these documentaries,
is that, you know, you get to see your friends again.
Even the hummingbird video.
RAY: We have a little bit of that from the first game, right?
From Tim's little-- when he was being annoying and...
having a camera in our faces.
It's nice to...
...to, um...
...to remember.
I was torn.
It must have been so interesting
to think about how to, like, weave this story in
and, like, cut this footage together.
And it's really amazing that you all did this,
but I also wish that I could have been part of it, so.
Yeah.
I mean, I...
I definitely went into it with a certain amount of dread, right?
Because it was...
It was a hard project.
There-- there were difficult moments.
And I was afraid of how folks would be depicted or represented.
A lot of the...
...difficulties made me not have joy in making games anymore.
At that point. I think it's back.
I don't know.
I don't know, it's all--
Or it's all burned out and I don't feel anything anymore.
[LAUGHTER]
So, you know, knowing that,
and knowing that, you know, those...
...clips or that...
...is going to replay that footage, it's a--
It's a tough thing to go through.
It was really hard for me to watch.
Like, as soon as I started watching it, I was, like, right back there.
So, I mean, you did a great job,
because it really brought how it was.
And I remember I had a strong reaction,
because as soon as it came out, I was like:
"Oh, I'm gonna check these out."
And I, like...
I would watch a few and I'd be like: "Ah..."
And I would just, like-- I would just start to, like, shake.
So I had to, like, stop.
Wanting to yell through the screen and be like:
"No, it's okay! You don't have to worry about that!
Because this is gonna happen. And don't do this, and don't do that!"
I think I got maybe-- maybe ten episodes in
and then I was like: "I gotta-- I can't. I can't, I'm not ready."
But that felt like I was letting you guys down.
And I also felt like I was letting myself down.
I just said: "I'm better than this. I'm stronger than this."
It was-- I mean, I kind of--
I kind of couldn't stop watching it.
JAMES: Yeah, I expected it to be a lot harder to watch than it was.
I expected it to be, like, traumatic to go back and relive difficult moments.
Um...
But it wasn't. I don't know, it was fine.
It was very strange seeing stuff like Tim clearly not want to hire me...
...and Zak fight to hire me.
You gotta-- you gotta take chances on people.
I'll fire him if he's bad.
Yeah.
But then say he'd be happy to fire me.
I think, honestly, for me watching it,
that was probably the most interesting aspect.
Just all of what was going on.
All the other characters. Characters...
People.
Seeing your part in a bigger picture,
that was really amazing.
And seeing all these, like, meetings that you didn't necessarily go to
and being like: "Oh, I see why Tim was like that.
Because of this meeting that happened prior."
Because you don't necessarily know, like:
"Oh, their mood has changed.
Why has their mood changed? Oh, I don't know."
I think you should ask every single person that question.
And let me know what they say.
PAUL: Yeah, I would love to know...
what you thought of some of the stuff in the doc that you weren't present for.
JAMES: The only painful part, I think, was seeing people...
...at the studio reflect about me in real-time...
in ways that I really wish they had done with me.
And I wish they had addressed with me directly.
Yeah, that part was difficult, but...
mostly it was just really interesting.
SETH: I had never seen the video footage of Tim and Zak sitting there
and talking about a lot of these ideas for the first time.
And it was...
it was very interesting to me,
because I had basically, like, inherited some design documents
and some decisions that got made years and years ago.
And I was trying to just be like: "Well, what...
Okay, yeah, this is what we are doing."
And, you know, it just seemed like that's just what--
what needed to happen in Psychonauts 2.
But, like, the origin of those ideas,
and the conversations around, like, how we got there was really revealing.
I was like: "I should have watched this shit a long time ago."
[LAUGHS]
We all needed to see that!
I wasn't angry at you.
But I was angry that we weren't seeing that,
because I think that would have helped us all as a studio...
...maybe even get behind Zak a little bit more.
That, actually... It was strange watching that footage
and being like: "Wow, Zak is doing a great job here."
You know, when we were brainstorming in the beginning,
it was, like, really happy times.
I was like: "Oh, that's right. We were, like, hitting it off.
We were vibing creatively, laughing, coming up with tons of stuff."
And, um...
When you see things start to go bad,
you can see how that--
that kind of pressure and fear of, like...
...public failure brings out not our best selves usually.
Like, none of us are on our best
when we are, like, worried about publicly failing.
So, um...
You know...
That's what I would say about that.
Is that-- that-- That's a hard thing to do for anybody.
And it was really, you know, it was kind of disappointing...
...to see...
...and know that that happened here,
you know, that happened here at this company.
And-- and everyone--
you know, and it drove some people away.
Some really talented, wonderful people.
I want to go back all the way to Anna.
Because, like, I would say that's the biggest regret I have on the project
is losing Anna Kipnis.
And if I had, um...
seen this footage in the documentary, I probably would have--
not to blame you guys for not showing me this,
but, honestly, it wasn't until--
I mean, Anna came to me to say she was having a hard time.
And when she explained it to me, I was like:
"So, you are having conflicts with someone
and they are overruling you, and...
But they are the project leader, so."
I didn't really quite understand why it was so bad.
And then when she left, I was like:
"Wow, that must have been worse than I-- than I realized.
I didn't-- I didn't think she was that upset.
ANNA: I think a waterfall would do that.
-ZAK: Like a little: "Pshhh." -ANNA: Yeah.
TIM: "And we've been through so many problems over the years,
surely this could have been fixed."
ZAK: Do I want to just do something interesting there
or do you want to do a waterfall?
TIM: Watching the documentary I was like:
"Oh, wow, those meetings were...
You can just see it on her face."
That was really hard to see.
I knew that was going on.
And again, regrets, regrets, regrets, right?
It's one thing to hear that something tough happened.
It's another thing to, like, see that tough thing happen
and then to see the reaction of the person going through it.
And there are some of those meetings where I'm like:
"Am I-- am I in that room?
If I was in that room, why didn't I say something?"
TIM: Because those meetings were about people being shut down
and made to feel embarrassed for bringing up things.
No one is going to pitch the idea that makes the game good
when they are, kind of, mocked
or made to feel bad about bringing forth creative ideas.
ASIF: All the stuff leading up to her eventually leaving.
Things in that episode, like--
I remember just, like, watching her--
because, you know, we are always, like, keeping one eye on the viewfinder
and then one eye sort of, like, partially focused
just ambiently in the whole room,
because you are, like, waiting to see what small movements people are making.
And I feel like my eyes were always just kind of like: "Oh my god."
There were so many times where I just remember, like...
moving in for a certain shot, and then those ended up being used
in the, like, some of those moments that are really, really hard to watch now.
Pushing in on people's worst moments.
I'm glad that, like...
this is kind of years behind me now,
because I don't think that I would want to shoot it the same way now.
Or, like, that I would feel comfortable doing it.
Um...
TIM: You know, I was watching the documentary
and I was, you know, at the wrap party,
and all these feelings come out of, like: "Oh, wow, we got through it!"
You know, especially with the old-timers.
Like, with Kee, and Geoff, and Dave Russell, and Ray, and...
"We've been through so much together.
And, like, we went through another thing together.
And we all stuck together. And isn't that great?
Isn't that great that we all went through this?"
And in my head I kind of felt like: "It's great to see Kee, and...
And isn't that great Anna..."
And then, like, she wasn't there.
And that was, like, the first time-- Like, I knew obviously she wasn't there.
But that's the first time I really felt it, like:
"Oh, wow, she--
you know, she should be here at the end."
Um... and she wasn't.
And that's-- that's-- That was really upsetting to me.
I think I get it a little bit more.
Because Anna has always talked about...
when, you know, ex-Double Finers go to a company like Google or Facebook,
they often talk about trying to recreate
the special creative magic they had at Double Fine.
This vibe where people feel safe playing creatively,
and trying out things, and taking risks,
and supporting each other, and creating really--
these amazing things come out of that when that's working well.
And watching the meetings I realized,
I was watching her watch that-- that light kind of get snuffed out.
No, no, I don't want to go back to the drawing board.
I feel like we are really close on this.
Like, it just feels like we are, like, two inches away from something.
TIM: Okay, see ya.
I think that went pretty good.
TIM: That's what I figured out
just a little too late on that project.
You know how much I miss Zak.
Just everyday.
Like, I miss that management style so much.
Yeah, talking about Zak. Sit down.
Oh, shit!
On the other hand, I did watch the documentary
and sympathize a lot more with Zak.
Because I was like: "Man, he really was trying."
He was clearly stressed out by what was going on at the studio and...
...earnestly didn't know how to fix it.
I think that was the most surprising thing to me,
was seeing him be like: "I just don't know what's going on."
So, I feel bad that it went down the way it did.
No one is a bad guy, really.
Because everyone has their own shit.
And that's maybe...
...maybe Zak too, you know?
JP: I think also just culturally...
...design was in a weird spot with Double Fine, you know?
I think some people on the team,
many of whom did not, you know, stay till the end of the project,
they did transfer their animus for Zak
onto other designers, yeah.
And that sucks.
There were definitely times when, like, you know...
being a designer and trying to do my job was...
like, blew up in my face.
You know, now, as a designer here, I don't know.
And I wish I understood, you know,
the conflict between design and the other departments,
because I still feel that there is some tension there.
PAUL: So, you came on the project,
during Psychonauts 2, near the end-ish...
SARAH: Mm-hmm, I wasn't really aware of what I was walking into.
I hadn't heard anything about, you know, troubled development.
You know, I knew that the project was taking longer,
because I had backed it and so I knew when it was supposed to come out.
You know, being on other projects after that,
there is so much reference, even now, to Psychonauts,
to things that happened on Psychonauts 2.
You know, Mental Connection gets brought up so often.
"Oh, we don't want it to happen like how Mental Connection happened.
We don't want it to go down that route."
And that means nothing to me.
And so it's...
I wish I understood that.
Because, like, one of the feedback I would get would be, like,
designers liked working with me,
because, like, I would talk them through--
Apparently I'm really good at explaining blueprints
is what I've gotten as feedback.
And I was like: "That's kind of a weird feedback.
Do other people not work well with the designers?"
And I guess there had been, like, some conflict there
or just kind of, like-- some weird divide that had been formed.
You know, there were some schisms that were created.
Understanding the origins
and how we got here, I think, is important,
because, you know, otherwise you come up with solutions that...
may, you know, reopen old wounds or things like that.
Because like I said we are still living with some of that stuff now.
EMILY: I feel like we...
...hold on to...
...a lot of the Psychonauts 2 trauma.
As-- right now, even.
Oh, in Psychonauts 2 we did this--
this was bad,
so we need to do it this, like, completely opposite way.
And I think sometimes we overcorrect in some ways.
PAUL: And then, so, like, when the documentary came out...
-...you were seeing all this stuff... -Yeah.
...like, for the first time.
And I was just like: "Oh, this makes sense now.
This environment just kind of formed that."
But I think, like, now everyone kind of--
Like, I don't think there is any problems now.
Everyone works pretty well together.
But it was just like:
"Huh, okay, I get it now.
Now I get why I was getting that feedback."
But I do think that it's getting better.
I do think that when someone has a problem now...
...we talk about it.
I think it was partly just that--
yeah, like, there was still bad blood left over.
And when the person at the center of that is suddenly gone,
it doesn't just go away, you know?
Because, it was-- You know, Zak was the Project Lead.
He was-- at least that's the title, you know?
And I think that... he couldn't fill that role.
I think that people wouldn't really let him fill that role as well.
It was an experiment.
Unfortunately there were casualties...
...from it.
KEE: Double Fine is a place that...
...embraces change.
That, like--
If you look at how we survived,
it's because we changed from, like, you know,
big game to small game,
small game to trying this,
and then doing this,
and then crowdfunding, and all that kind of stuff.
Like, we had to adapt in order to survive.
So, part of Psychonauts 2 was trying to...
...embrace the change of a new process,
of working a particular way.
Thinking like: "Well, maybe this is gonna work better.
Or maybe this is additive to the way that we work or whatnot."
Personally, what I don't think we thought
enough about was in that process what did we lose?
But, yeah, I felt like I--
I really felt like I lost Double Fine for a long time.
And, um...
And it was hard!
I'm sorry that I, like, basically disappeared.
I just couldn't handle it.
Yeah, well, that's-- I mean, yeah.
It is what it is.
Hopefully there is now
just this shared experience that we all have.
So that if there is any one person who gets in the way,
we can collectively say:
"That's not helpful here.
That doesn't fit in here at Double Fine."
Watching how all that stuff played out
definitely taught me about leadership.
What to do and not to do.
And how it feels to be, you know, treated a certain way by a lead.
And just knowing how to talk with people,
and treat people,
and try to be empathetic to people's situations.
So...
Yeah.
Double Fine is what it is.
And I don't think it's worth trying to change it...
if you are gonna lose people like Anna and Amy.
TIM: Okay! Um, hello! Happy Monday!
It's great to see all of you.
Have we talked to James?
James Spafford about, um...
saying things to the outside world,
and putting games into it.
Hi.
Putting games into it...
Putting documentaries into it.
Which is what we are going to do this week on Friday.
Oh my god! Big day, 2 Player!
-It's finally happening. -Congratulations!
We are gonna surprise drop the entire 22-hour documentary
on Friday morning for backers,
and Friday afternoon for everybody else.
And, uh... everyone can have at it.
But, yeah, exciting! Woop-woop!
DREW: We are doing it?
PAUL: Unlisted.
Public.
All right, that's it!
Thirty-two.
DREW: Ta-da!
SPAFF: All right, I'm going live with the blog stuff.
Congratulations, folks!
-HARPER: I'll hit all the social stuff. -DREW: Cheers!
[PAUL EXHALES]
SPAFF: Someone cool is here!
-Oh, man! -We got Siddiky in here!
How is it going, you guys?
Congratulations to everybody!
Thanks!
We are all, like, exhausted and, like, freaking out at the same time.
I can imagine.
CAMDEN: I remember when that went out...
it was kind of the same deal of when the game first went out.
Because in both occasions
we didn't really know what we had on our hands.
It was really hard to see.
Because we were just so in it.
Uh, I don't know--
I don't know if people are going to go along on this ride or not.
PAUL: Some people were really scared about putting the documentary out.
They thought that it would, like, damage the company,
make it hard for us to hire people.
TIM: This is the big weekend we released the documentary.
Response has been okay, good.
No, um, horrible--
I haven't been fired yet.
And there has been no other backlash.
Yeah, but we got a lot of people applying for jobs here saying
because of the documentary they wanted to apply for a job here.
Which was funny.
Way more applicants than normal!
Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling.
And even though, like, things got gnarly,
people are like: "Yep, I want to work there."
But I think a lot of people watched it and said:
"Those are some really talented who were willing to work together
and get through something-- through some difficult times
to end up making something really great.
And those are people that I would love to work alongside."
But, um...
I'm glad that it's done and it's out.
And I am--
Strangely, I didn't think so, but I am watching it all again
and I'm already on Episode 18.
[CHUCKLES]
I always think the Anna episode is going to end differently.
Matt Booty going head-to-head with Gigi is probably the tensest moment in there.
But I think that still everyone comes off looking good.
Okay!
Tim, you motherfucker!
The context that I would like to put in there
is that you were texting me during that meeting
to tell me to ask that question!
TIM: Every scene you see in the documentary,
I'm texting the people to say what they say.
The entire documentary is my little puppet show.
You know that, right?
No, I don't remember actually texting you to--
Oh my god!
You had questions already and I wanted you to ask them.
-I seem to remember. -Uh-huh.
There were some interviewers that were giving you a hard time
about how you treated Andy on his way out.
Who?
Oh, that fucker got off easy.
Oh my god!
Totally unrelated maybe, but, like...
1775 to 1780 was exactly five years
that Benedict Arnold served with George Washington
before he, um... betrayed the country,
and was viewed as a traitor for the rest of his life.
-[RAY LAUGHS] -TIM: So, completely unrelated.
That's just something that people should know about...
I did think it was funny when he was on MinnMax
and he just doubled-down.
Look, the Benedict Arnold stuff I feel like was rough.
Exactly! I tricked you!
I was hoping you would say it, because no,
I a hundred-percent stand by that joke.
Okay, okay, all right.
[TIM CHUCKLES]
I mean, I--
I was upset with Andy.
I still-- I still feel my standard is that if you are a lead on a project,
you shouldn't leave in the last six to three months, you know, like--
in the last year of a project.
If you are a lead producer on the project.
But! I told him that.
And we stayed friendly over the whole thing, so.
I made that joke and, um...
Uh, I stand by it.
It was a pretty solid joke.
KEE: But I've also had people reaching out
to see how I'm doing.
[LAUGHS]
"Are you-- are you okay?"
[LAUGHS]
JOSH: You also-- thank you,
you guys are wizards, you make me look so good!
So smart and intelligent.
Who is the weirdest about being on camera?
Is it me?
JAMES: Everyone felt comfortable being mic'd and on camera.
And people really did forget that cameras were there.
And you can't do that unless you are embedded here
for the entire time,
for years and years and years and years.
And it's just nuts to look at!
I watched the documentary and I really take it for granted that...
it feels like when you watch it like there aren't cameras there.
And that's-- that's nuts.
Just by a nature of, like... attrition.
[NAOKO LAUGHS]
What the fuck was I even saying?
JAMES: Eventually everyone gets to a point where they are like:
"Well, I just-- I need to do my job.
And I can't keep thinking about how I'm being portrayed
in a documentary that's one day gonna come out.
And so you just get, like, a lot of honesty.
And, you know, people recognize that and it's awesome.
LEVI: I can't even explain...
...what a day is like here
to, like, my friends or, you know, my mom.
Like, it's hard!
Now I can just, like, point my family at a video
and I don't have to, like, update them on how my life is going.
PAUL: A twenty-hour video.
Yeah. Yeah, right?
I saw one commenter...
...talk about how they were amazed at how many people left during P2.
And I was like: "Oh, that's-- that's not much.
I've seen much more people leave than that.
On, like, perfectly fine, you know, normal--
I was actually astonished how many people didn't.
I was like-- that's-- that's actually...
That made me feel good.
That made me feel really good.
The fact that were so few people who did leave,
I think shows that there were a great number of people
that just wanted very much to...
...be here to help right the ship.
AARON: But it was really interesting seeing people's...
sort of hot takes on various events that occurred.
"Oh, this thing was unfair.
Or, like, this shouldn't have happened to this person.
Or this person didn't seem, like, this bad."
And looking at them and being like:
"I don't agree with that in the least."
I do run into people that will--
will, like, argue for a version of events and I'll be like:
"Yeah, that's not-- that's not--
You are missing some context."
And, like, now that there is this footage out there,
this also becomes our, internally,
our story of how-- how this process went, you know?
That becomes our own memory of how it is.
So it's weird to have...
like, a canon--
like, a canon version of events, you know?
And... that's a terrifying thing to do, you know?
And this documentary, you know,
and the prior documentaries and stuff,
are sort of stories that the studio is telling about itself.
But, you know, the studio wants to tell these stories,
because, you know, they think that they have value to--
to other people,
and even some value to us who are still working here.
I kind of made a conscious choice to...
...sit out this phase of the studio's narrative, you know?
Um...
You know, I sort of chose the level of distance
that felt appropriate, you know?
I don't know, there is also-- there is another different element of it
that I felt was really surreal which is just sort of...
...yeah, my own relationship
to your Broken Age documentary and, like, how--
Because that was also, like, way before I started at the company
and I was, like--
I was studying.
And, like, I sort of--
You develop, by watching those things, like,
a parasocial relationship with people.
And then coming into the office, and then meeting them,
meeting Anna and Levi,
and, like, Emily and all these people
that you have sort of, like, pre-conceived notions of who they are.
And then you get to know them, and they are exactly the person
that you thought they were.
That was, like-- That was really strange.
And then-- Like, having gone through that process
and now I'm sort of in a similar thing is very...
It's weird.
One of my friends was telling me about--
he went to a game development conference
and, like, some indie developer was like: "Oh, you know Tazio?!"
I was like: "Jesus..."
Oh, yeah.
PAUL: You are suddenly kind of a known figure in the industry.
People recognized me a couple times at GDC.
Cameo!
JAMES: And people come up to me...
only at game industry events obviously,
but, like, I was at D.I.C.E.
and, like, there were people that I am a fan of that were like:
"Oh! You are James from the documentary."
That's fucking wild!
How much did you talk about me?
Like I said, I am embarrassed by how I come across in the documentary.
And I don't think that's reflected in how people talk to me about it,
which I guess is good.
But, like, it is...
...like, multiple episodes of me failing at my job.
There was a while after it came out where I was like:
"It's not helpful for my career if I ever want to leave."
I don't know if that's true either.
There is me being in the hospital, right?
Like, that was like--
I thought I was dying in the middle of that documentary.
And... now tens of thousands of people have seen that moment for me.
The documentary did affect how I saw myself.
Because... I look at myself in the documentary
and I just look so...
...unwell.
It made me really sad to see myself like that.
And so I went really hardcore into dieting and exercising.
Every moment of my life is different.
People smile at me in public now.
And, like, didn't before.
My diabetes is in remission now.
And so, to be out of that zone,
and to be...
...like, a normal functioning member of society is, like, great.
And it changes everything.
But mostly it's just really great to see...
I mean, especially because we are out of the office,
it's just really nice to see everybody...
...collaborating in the office while I watch it.
And I'm like: "Man, I want-- I want that again."
I loved walking through the hallway and seeing 50 people
that I, like, know are brilliant and creative.
And, like, how could you not want that?
I watched the documentary three times.
And then, strangely, the third time I watched it
I was mostly just watching all the fun parts that we had.
Like, there was a lot of just the team having--
For all the things that were going wrong,
you can see in the background of the shots,
usually, like, montages,
a ton of people just doing amazing work.
Like all the characters getting modeled...
which were almost never a problem.
Just, like, all these things kind of flowing along.
And also the people who were getting along on the project
just having a good time together and, um...
And the sad thing is a lot of the best times
on the project happened after COVID started.
And we were at home.
That's when creatively, like, a lot of the stuff started coming together
and the quality of the game really started coming together.
But it was all over Zoom and it was very, like, hard to capture
the vibe of, like, everyone in the office, so.
So, the third time through I was mostly just watching it
with all this nostalgia for the team.
It's what really got me committed to finishing the remodel in the office
and getting people to come back and, like, do yoga and have board game nights.
Because it was like: "Oh, I miss being together.
Look at all the shots of people being together."
That was mostly what I focused on.
Like, it rallied me around trying to bring the company back
into the physical space of Double Fine,
because it was a very special place to be.
[BERT PLAYS THE PIANO]
RAY: You want to enjoy each other's company.
You know, you want to be here for the work,
but you also want to be here just for the people.
And, you know, when I was watching the episode where I moved,
and I was sitting in my office just, like, by myself,
it took me back to remembering, like, how I really missed everybody.
Like, I get emotional when I watch that episode.
Watching the episode where Ray leaves, right?
Hey, Ray. How's it going?
And you are like: "Wow, it's such a big deal being made of Ray leaving."
And now we are-- Because it was a big deal, right?
And you think about it...
You watch everybody crying and grieving...
This one person left.
And then it happened, like, sixty more times
and we never even talked about it.
Like, all of us left.
Every single person here, like, left each other's presence.
I mean, Ray wasn't leaving the company. He was just leaving our daily lives.
And it happened a bunch more times.
It just happened so quietly and slowly
that no one even noticed it.
But I still think there is, like, this--
I don't know, I still think there is grieving to do about that.
And I look forward to those of you who are coming back to the office
to seeing you again.
Watching that video really makes me appreciate that.
"Oh, yeah! That's what it's like to work...
in a studio, with people."
Because at that point we had been working
from home for a couple of years.
And it was just, like-- I was just so used to it.
And definitely had this immediate feeling of like:
"I want to go back in to the office and see people again."
I feel bad all the times in the documentary
that I comment on the documentary.
But you used all that!
I thought you'd be like...
"Oh, Tim ruined the shot.
We can't use it, because he is talking about the documentary."
Even when I said: "This is the final shot of the documentary."
I'm like: "Oh my god,
you actually made it like, the final shot of the documentary."
But now I'm scared of what to say.
What if I'm like: "This is the episode where Tim dies?"
"Remember when he was pushing the desk and he had a heart attack?"
Uh... I'd like to welcome you all back to the new Double Fine.
We remodeled.
This is our new space. This is, uh, Suite 208.
We have a multi-purpose board game area and yoga space.
And we have an outdoor space which has a tiki bar...
and a fire pit.
It's beautiful. It's a whole new day.
PAUL: How do you like these couches?
I mean, I wouldn't have it in my own house.
But it's fine for here.
TIM: This is the first week
people have come back to the office since quarantine really.
But it's been this ghost town.
And then...
Microsoft came to visit to check out our new games,
to see our new games for the first time.
And so we really wanted to, like, make the office look nice.
And so, since 2021
Monica has been planning this remodel with Denise.
And, like, supply chain,
all that stuff that's happened during COVID delayed it.
And they pulled it together this week.
Like, the day before Microsoft--
like, the morning before Microsoft arrived.
It was amazing, triumphant thing.
It looks beautiful!
We can put all of the trophies up.
We have shelves everywhere for more trophies.
Here is-- here is three-year old coffee.
[MUSIC]
TIM: It was great! It's hard to tell. Like, our new games are...
a test of this new thing of, like:
"What game could we never get accepted by a publisher?"
Lee is like: "What could I never get approved by a publisher?"
So he is making a game, I don't want to call it weird,
but it's definitely, like, unexpected.
So we had--
We had Matt Booty, we had Phil Spencer,
and their whole crew.
But, um...
So, I don't--
I gotta follow-up next week and find out what they thought.
But they seemed pleased.
Because I have-- like,
the way I feel like we fit into Microsoft is, like,
we can make the strangest games on Game Pass.
The most surprising, most creative,
most unique games.
Hopefully. That's our goal.
So hopefully they came away with like: "Well, they are doing that."
Yeah, I'm gonna leap in...
[LAUGHTER]
Like a trust fall situation.
Jerry!
Jerry! Jerry!
[CHEERING]
TIM: Don't ask too many questions.
Don't worry, I got this Paul.
I'm documenting this. You can chill out tonight.
That was just a welcome back to the office...
You know, we went out doing our historical bar crawl.
We were having a good time.
It was walking between two bars in Chinatown--
all our project codenames for our games, as you know, are Chinatown bars.
Oh, is this Broken Age?!
TIM: And walking between two of them, I...
I believe-- my story is that Alex Turner was supposed to catch me
as I jumped off a ledge,
and he wasn't there, and I fell and hit the ground.
And I didn't realize it, but I...
Everyone was like: "You hit your head!"
I was like: "I don't feel anything..."
But they are like: "We heard a snap!"
And I was like: "I don't know what it was. Well, let's keep going!"
ALEX: Tim... I want to make sure you are...
TIM: How bad was the fall?
ALEX: Uh, Levi, Levi...
LEVI: Oh my god, I didn't do it...
I heard the sound though.
[LEVI GRUNTS]
[CHUCKLING]
He was trying to do some little, like, balance beam
like he was in the Olympics or something like that.
And then, like: "It's weird that my chest hurts down here.
Why does my chest hurt? This hurts."
Because I was on the side...
TIM: It wasn't until, like, I woke up in the middle of the night,
after all the booze wore off I was like:
"Oh my god! What is this pain in my..."
And I had cracked a rib, and I went to the hospital
and got it fixed.
We need to have more group events
at the company that aren't about booze probably.
We should do that.
PAUL: Tim wants everybody to come back.
-Yes. -Everybody came back.
PAUL: Everybody got sick.
Yep, so...
-Well, not everybody. -Most.
TIM: Oh, everyone else got COVID.
So I got off easy with some broken rib.
It is what it is. I mean... everyone has had it.
Everyone will have it again.
Like, if I talk about my mental health as affected by COVID,
who the fuck hasn't been?
I mean, it's-- it--
COVID...
...destroyed a lot of things.
Beyond the, like, very real health aspect of it.
Like, a lot of people died.
It also, like, destroyed a lot of social circles.
It destroyed that sense of...
...community for the lack of a better term.
JAMES: There is, like, a consistent presence at the office now
on Mondays and Thursdays
that I appreciate.
But, um...
As you can see, on Fridays it's a little more empty in here.
I definitely miss that still.
The studio's been doing a lot of stuff to try to get people to come back in
purely off of positive reinforcement.
We have board game nights. We do all sorts of stuff like that.
There is no pressure for anyone to come in.
Anyone who does not want to come in for one reason or another,
no questions are asked.
But... I...
I do love when I get the opportunity to work with people again in the office.
Do you need help?
I like how much taller you get as you stand up.
PAUL: What do you think the future is?
Hybrid.
I think-- I mean, it has to be.
I don't think it's going to be the same Double Fine as it used to be.
The world has changed and we have to change with it, so.
PAUL: Do you think it'd be different if there were a lot of people here?
No.
Yeah, I mean a lot of people have moved away.
Which is totally understandable.
Yeah, I'm hoping to go to live in the Virgin Islands
and, like, work from the Virgin Islands.
And now we are in a position with this company where that's possible.
Oh, yeah, I'm having you guys down!
You gotta-- I'm convinced it's the most beautiful place I've ever seen.
I just love it.
LEVI: But just around here it's crazy seeing how much it's changed.
Like, the coffee shop that we went to is, like, not there anymore.
And we went there on one of the last days.
And we were like: "It sucks that you guys...
...have to close."
And they were like: "It's because of you, guys!"
[LAUGHS]
Because we were not here to give them money anymore.
Yeah...
It's weird. It's very different.
[MUSIC]
TAZIO: And, like, just experiencing the city again.
Like, you know, places burning down.
Suddenly there is a giant hole in the ground
where there used to be a building.
And all this sun is, like, flooding in to an empty studio.
Yeah, the transformation of San Francisco,
seeing that from a distance is strange.
Really strange.
Fundamentally, I want to live in Copenhagen as well, you know?
Just, like, trying to get that--
that to work out is, like, a conflict in my life, you know,
that I'm-- that I'm working on.
SETH: But it is also hard, because there are so many people
that are really important to the company culture,
in my mind, that are now remote, you know?
Like Tazio and Naoko.
I'm bummed that the studio is never gonna be the way it was.
I feel like every time somebody is just like:
"I'm gonna move away. I want to work remote forever."
I just feel like it, like...
...chips away at Tim a little bit.
Like, at his hope of things just being back to normal.
SARAH: You know, joining during the pandemic has been...
you know, a little more isolating,
and a little harder to get to know people.
Everybody knows everyone
and I feel like I know no one.
I want that culture of Double Fine that I...
...haven't had.
I was kind of hoping that I'd come into what I had seen...
...in documentaries before.
ASIF: Some of the little bits of the old world are returning
and I think that's just gonna keep happening.
Episode 33!
And it makes those moments feel like the old times again.
JP: It feels like being back with the living so much more.
But, you know, at the same time, yeah,
like, you know, the distance I've come to hold
my professional life at over the years is, like...
I think it's a more healthy one.
I've had some mental health issues,
which many people do,
and... I've never felt like I needed to worry
about losing my job here
because, you know, I was going through a rough time.
And honestly the pandemic was... a real test of that.
Yeah, I've always struggled with depression and...
...just erratic moods.
And, you know, I didn't realize how much of that was due to commuting
and going into the office every day.
Because there were days where I, like-- I loved being in the office,
and there were days where it's like:
"I don't want to get on the bus right now.
Like, I just don't want to get up right now."
And, uh...
You know, I never had energy to cook at home,
or exercise, or anything like that.
And then once we went remote it was like:
"Oh... like, I feel good."
You know, I'd call in sick a lot before.
So, I haven't--
I haven't called in sick since, like, the pandemic started basically.
It's, like, I just feel fine.
I wake up and I have time to go...
grocery shopping, and do a little laundry.
And so for me it's just been, like, a tremendous boost to my mental health.
That being said, I do miss seeing everybody.
Today I just got roped into, like, watching Tim playtest,
and had some impromptu conversations from that.
That's just stuff I don't get remote, you know.
I'm not blind to what you miss out on.
And so, it's interesting.
Like, I don't think it's solved yet.
Yeah, I would love to figure out how to replicate that
without me having to come into the office everyday.
GEOFF: Having someone be able to, like, just turn around to you
and see what you are doing and being like:
"That's cool!
What if we did this?"
TAZIO: Like, someone will just make an off-hand remark
that will make the whole thing click together.
And I'll be like: "Oh! I get it now!"
Right?
And not having those moments as readily available sucks.
It just sucks.
It's awesome. Like, coming into this place
there is, like, so much history here.
I have memories from, like, every single project.
I've sat at, like, half of these desks.
So I just look around and I'm like:
"Oh, man, that's the place I sat when I was working on that one thing."
And seeing so many people come and go.
There is just, like, so many stories here.
Meaningless things that you don't chat about
while you are, you know, at home...
...talking through the internet pipes.
-TIM: Don't touch them! -EMILY: I'm not gonna touch them!
TIM: Oh my god, you guys!
-ASIF: Is this gonna last? -EMILY: Is it gonna last?
It's gonna dry!
Well, let's-- How does the story end?
How are you gonna document--
PAUL: We are waiting for you to have, like, a brilliant quote
that could just, like, sum it all up, you know?
I was thinking about the future.
[MUSIC]
But I... do have a couple ideas that I really want to make.
Because now I want to make games
when it's fun and I don't have to worry about going out of business all the time.
SETH: And from my perspective, that's why I'm, like...
...really want to...
...help get an answer for what that next game is.
Because I know at some point Microsoft is gonna come and be like:
"So, where is the next Tim Schafer game?"
I want to be able to be like: "Here is the development plan.
Here is the prototype.
Like, why wouldn't we build this?"
But I do feel like Tim still has some fire.
Like, it's been fun working on new-- on some new projects with him.
SETH: Tim also kind of had this idea
that I think he's been kicking around for a while in his head,
about making something that was--
involving like a [...]
Um...
And he kind of just threw it out there as like:
"Oh, someday I would like to make a game like this."
But I was like: "Well, that...
...seems like a game that we could prototype."
Now I'm doing a game...
but it's just me, and Seth, and Ray.
And it's so good!
I don't want anyone in the company to hear about it or know about it.
Um...
Did I forget any games?
Are we making another game?
You.
That's, uh... that's not even approved yet.
Can't talk about it. No updates.
Um...
TIM: We are just making it by ourselves
and we are just trying to get as far as we can before anyone comes...
...and wants a piece of it.
SETH: And I'm kind of at the point where...
...the core game loop of the project we are working on now...
like, it could be a game.
Like, it could really-- it could really be a game.
And I think that there is a lot of stuff that we could fill in.
But it would be great to get more people on.
So, the question that we are trying to answer right now for ourselves is:
"Is this game the game we want to build next?"
And that's-- I mean, that's ultimately up to Tim...
...to make a call on.
Um... so, we'll see.
TIM: Great, great.
Thank you. Thank you, Derek.
I haven't really given updates
because our team has been so small.
But I got possibly two people bigger on accident recently.
Talking about implementing some stuff with Sarah,
and Emily doing some...
Whatever she wants.
SARAH: I know, I'm honestly surprised
that he was willing to take me on.
PAUL: It's been long enough.
SARAH: I would think so.
And they've built a lot!
It's impressive!
PAUL: Just in terms of that Double Fine experience you were craving...
Is it that obvious?
PAUL: Yeah, does it seem like this might be a step in the right direction?
PAUL: You are salivating right now.
SARAH: I'm-- I'm excited to, like, actually have meetings with people
in person, potentially.
Amazing!
Unheard of.
So, yeah...
SCOTT: This is the dream time.
This is when you are just--
anything is possible.
But it's definitely gotten me very excited about the game.
Here I am! I'm here!
-Oh my goodness! -Yay!
SCOTT: I remember--
I think it was when Emily first joined us,
and I remember thinking--
and she was just beginning--
starting to find her confidence or whatever,
but it was obvious that she was a pretty brilliant concept artist.
And now that she's done Psychonauts,
she has, like, an incredible confidence in her ideas,
and just, like, riffing and just creating this thing.
It's fun to watch.
She has the power to...
...inspire people.
Which I think is what Tim has, you know?
You know, and I can see it with Tim too.
Like, he is...
You know, I mean, I can't imagine, like...
the pressure of having to keep a company going,
and keep everyone happy, and keep everyone paid,
and, you know, from project to project,
and having to, like, try to get funding for every project.
And I could just see it in him now,
like, this comfort and inspiration.
He feels almost more inspired than I've ever seen him now.
[MUSIC]
Hi, you guys!
You are not last though. Geoff is right behind you.
What's that? Oh, you got vows!
-JAMES: Yeah. -TIM: Oh, yeah.
Are they too long? Is that too long?
-It can be as long as you want. -Okay.
TIM: My name is Tim. I'm a friend of the couple.
And I'm honored to have been asked to officiate this ceremony today.
I'm also James' employer
and this is just one of the many benefits we offer at Double Fine...
...apparently.
Loving dogs was just the start of Aiden's many positive attributes
rubbing off on James.
He also got James cooking with more spice and flavor
and less Velveeta.
[LAUGHTER]
It's my pleasure to pronounce you a married couple.
Get kissing.
[CHEERING]
PAUL: How has your relationship with Tim evolved?
Yeah, I don't know, I really like Tim.
I--
I don't begrudge him for anything that happened on Psychonauts.
For a while I did.
But... I think I also expect him to be perfect.
I think a lot of people probably do.
And when it comes to what happened on Psychonauts 2,
I don't know-- I don't know how he could have known better.
TIM: I don't want to be--
I have to be an asshole for a second and ask for some physical.
Could all of you who had just raised your hand
please come to the stage for one second?
Could you just come up here, Grim team?
You know, when Grim Fandango finished in '98,
we had to sign off on the game,
and I was so--
we all were pretty burnt out,
and left and went home and stayed home for three months.
[LAUGHTER]
Yes, we laugh about it now.
And it was like: "Oh my god!
That was a hell of a project."
But besides saying thank you, I want to say
I'm so sorry for that horrible, horrible crunch that we all had.
You are welcome to still--
I'm not saying that so you all have to, like, like me now.
It's fine.
You can go on hating me forever, it was totally deserved.
And it sounds like an excuse, that's all we knew how to do back then.
That was how we knew how to make games.
We've learned a lot since then.
We are still learning.
PAUL: At the P2...
...soundtrack celebration...
...in 23 years...
...what do you think you'll be apologizing for?
[TIM LAUGHS]
[MUSIC]
PAUL: So we saw Tim deal with a lot of stuff and, um...
do you feel like we as a studio have tried to learn lessons from that experience?
He does mention a lot of, like:
"When I saw this on the documentary,
I don't want that to ever happen again.
We need to do better for this, and this, and this."
He takes it very seriously.
[MUSIC]
TIM: What did I learn from those choices?
And also what did we learn about the company
and what did we learn about ourselves?
Because we learned so much.
And having this documentary to watch, like, taught us a lot.
So, um...
We actually ended up writing a company handbook from scratch.
Which we didn't have a company handbook.
We had, like, a handbook that said, like:
"Here are your California labor rights."
But we didn't have, like: "What does it mean to be Double Fine?"
And, um...
But besides of the good things
that came out of the years we were working on Psychonauts 2,
coming up with the written down version of our--
our vision and values,
our statement of being of Double Fine,
is one of the-- besides a good game, that was the other good thing
we brought out of all that pain and suffering.
It was like: "Maybe we should actually write down
what we think is important about being a game studio.
KEE: What are the things...
...that we treasure,
that we want to make sure it's not lost or forgotten.
MALENA: Because in the end...
if you can learn from the past,
whether it's your mistakes or someone else's mistakes,
and if the rest of us can also take that same mentality and say:
"Well, let's-- let's do better."
That's important.
PAUL: We've had a lot of new hires who have come on after P2.
People who have even watched the documentary and wanted to come here.
[TIM CHUCKLES]
TIM: Well, we've hired some really great people,
especially in central tech.
"Everyone on my interview loop that I just talked to before you...
...was fantastic. Like, how did you do that?
How did you just get them all here and then keep them?"
And he said:
"Just look for people who are kind."
That's it. That's all he needed to say.
ELSBETH: Before here I was at--
where... stuff happened, right?
Like, the documented stuff.
The thing is is that they knew about that stuff for years
before it, like, came to a lawsuit.
And the fact that Double Fine acted upon it
was a very good sign to me.
And also the fact that there were women on the team
who had been here for over ten years...
It's very rare in the industry to actually have that.
Yeah.
But the fact that action actually happened.
TIM: So, I mean, I feel like these are all people
who really fit with who we wanna be as a company for sure.
But some of the stuff that became values we wrote down, like:
"Good ideas can come from anywhere.
Culture of mutual respect."
Ideas about, you know, how flat the company is.
How we treat each other.
It was important to-- to write it down.
[MUSIC]
JP: Yeah...
I think it's complicated, you know?
Because every day is, like, a new little... experience.
Everybody is learning different things.
People are internalizing good things that happen,
bad things that happen.
Because, yeah, you could certainly...
...wrap it up with a nice little bow.
And sort of look back on something that was difficult,
but you managed it in the end and say:
"It was all worth it."
But life is just so full of situations...
...where you can't really say that, you know?
I am happy that the studio has gone through its difficulties,
and survived,
and is trying to improve in good faith, you know?
We are growing together as a team.
And we are becoming so much more powerful because of that, you know?
[CHEERING]
[MUSIC]
JP: But, yeah, you know.
This has been y'all's life, right?
I really thought about what you all have--
what this has been like for-- for y'all,
like, at pretty much every step of the way, you know, and...
Yeah, no, it's-- yeah.
PAUL: We've been on this project since 2015.
Twenty fif--
Yeah.
[CHUCKLES]
How much more are you all shooting?
Am I the last bit of footage that you all are shooting around this?
PAUL: As the sun lowers into the horizon.
-Hell, yeah! -I would hope so.
Yeah, roll fucking credits.